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| Mascis, Murph and Barlow (in '87 here) had a lot more to do with '90s rock than they get credit for. |
I mentioned to a friend yesterday, who really didn't know Dinosaur Jr.'s work, that they were basically grunge before there was grunge. There were a lot of indie rock outfits in the late '80s moving from the fast and spartan confines of the hardcore scene and developing a guitar rock that owed more to classic, '60s sounds (Meat Puppets come to mind), but Dinosaur Jr. was creating what would really be a model for a number of loud, guitar bands that were right around the corner. Particularly Nirvana.
With a Nirvana nostalgia onslaught around the corner because of the 20th anniversary of Nevermind, it's worth noting that Dinosaur Jr. had created the perfect space for a shoe-gazing, deeply introverted folky sort of rock on 10,000 volts of distortion. Mascis, the anti-rock star was gangly, long-haired and camera shy in a way that, to me, is eerily similar to Cobain. The only thing Mascis lacked was Cobain's killer voice (Calling what Mascis does singing is charitable). Like Nirvana, Dinosaur Jr. also had a big beat monster of a drummer in Murph and a goofy and stage-friendly bass player in Barlow.
The video for Freak Scene, the single from Bug, 1988.
In the terrific indie rock history Our Band Could Be Your Life: Scenes From The American Underground 1981 -1991, by Michael Azerrad, Barlow tells Azerrad that when he heard Nevermind, he knew right away that Dinosaur Jr. had just missed the crest of a wave of popularity for the kind of rock that his band had pioneered. He describes running into Mascis -- he had already been kicked out of the band at this point -- and telling Mascis, in effect, that the new radio indie darling "should be us."
It's interesting to wonder what might have been. Mascis was certainly popular enough among the indie rock crowd, even as his string of excellent early '90s records: Green Mind, Where You Been and Without a Sound failed to chart as well as those by Seattle's big grunge rock mega bands: Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden.
And yet, 25 years after they broke on the indie rock scene, I'm off to see Dinosaur Jr.'s original lineup. Barlow and Mascis reconnected about five years ago and have since produced two outstanding records, Beyond and Farm. Dinosaur Jr. is still here and better than ever. The same can't be said of nearly any so-called grunge band I know of.
I got into them when Green Mind came out and yeah, it should've been huge. The record that "Feel the Pain" (their biggest hit) came off of was called Without a Sound. Plus, I like J's voice. It just doesn't roar like Cobain's voice did (though Lou Barlow's voice certainly does when he's in the mood) and it's higher, kinda like Neil Young. Also, I think Dinosaur Jr was a huge influence on shoegaze, too, and particularly My Bloody Valentine (who they toured with). Anyway, see you tonight. It should be better than the last time we saw them. I can't wait to hear some of those Bug tunes live.
ReplyDeleteBrain fart. Edited. Another thing about Dino Jr. They also made it OK for very loud guitar bands to sing introspective, sad sack songs. For Mascis, who was really into metal, that's what makes them so interesting.
ReplyDeleteMost of what you said is true, but like I said Friday, Greg Sage of The Wipers (a huge influence on Nirvana, who covered several of their songs, but otherwise generally an unknown/unheralded band) got there first. Guitar virtuosity? Check. A post-punk band with an interest in metal? Check. Sad, introspective songs? Yep. You get my point. There's a 3 disc box set with their 1st 3 albums and a lot of bonus tracks. I can't recommend it highly enough.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipers_Box_Set
I spent some timetoday listening to the WIpers.... I have to say, I don't see as direct a connection. I hear some interesting guitar sound (not virtuosity, a thing for which Mascis is really in his own category). They sound very cool for a late '70s/'80s punk/pre-alt-rock sort of band, but no closer to Nirvana than a whole decade of music from R.E.M to The Pixies.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that Dino Jr influenced Nirvana as much as DInosaur Jr. paved a lot of space for a band like Nirvana to succeed. In 1991, Mascis (as Dinosaur Jr.) released Green Mind, a major label release, which to my ears, is well beyond The Wipers' sound. Nothing against the Wipers. They sound really neat for their time, but that time was 10 years prior to Green Mind.
That Major Labels were putting out records like Dinosaur Jr. (Sire), and The Meat Puppets (London), Screaming Trees (Epic) not to mention big records by Pearl Jam and Soundgarden, to me shows Dinosaur was a real immediate pre-cursor to the sound, feel style and even aesthetic that became "grunge."
Of course the same can be said for any rock band that found big fan bases in the 80s... I just see Dinosaur as sort of getting the "grunge" model down entirely about 3 or 4 years before it became a buzzword.
Now I'm curious what Wipers records you listened to. To my ears, Over the Edge (their 3rd record) was a huge influence on Nirvana and probably the model for their sound.
ReplyDeleteMatt, that record has a lot of surf-rock swing a-la Sonic Youth (Listen to "Goo" right after "Over the Edge") to me. There's none of the sludge guitar and caveman rhythms of Bleach (though the fuzz tone of "Romeo" has a little pre-Nirvana to it) or In Utero. Or Nevermind, for that matter.
ReplyDeleteListen, in rock, every inovations owe something to the inovations before it. And I hear a lot of neat sounds in the Wipers, but I don't hear anything and think "Aha! here's where Nirvana got it." Not like I do with the Pixies, Dinosaur Jr. or Mudhoney.
Fair enough, Pete. I agree that everything comes from somewhere else and in general, I believe originality to be a somewhat overrated and misrepresented concept in popular music and in general.
ReplyDeleteWith that said, I've been thinking about something you wrote earlier regarding Dinosaur Jr's Green Mind being "well beyond" the early Wipers stuff. I love both Dinosaur Jr and Wipers, but I couldn't disagree more. As much as I love a lot of the music of the early '90s (after all, I grew up in that era), to me the late '70s/early '80s punk, post-punk, et al. era is probably the single greatest era in music (yes even more so than the '60s).
Of course, it's totally subjective and just my opinion, but if anything many of those bands suffered from being just a bit too ahead of their time. The Replacements, Hüsker Dü, The Minutemen, Big Boys and many others would also fit in that category.
And Mudhoney took just about everything in terms of their early sound (though it's great) from early Blue Cheer. :-)
Also, I've never thought about the connection between Sonic Youth's "Goo" and The Wipers' "Over the Edge", but Goo was a favorite of mine when I was younger. I'll have to listen to them back to back.
ReplyDeleteMatt, (I'm enjoying this, btw)
ReplyDeleteI hear you on the late '70s. It was a vital point in music in my mind simply for creating so many new starting points for rock music that didn't rely on Blues or Country.
I see the early 90s as a great maturation of a lot of those punk and post punk ideas -- not only in the music that was being created but the culture around it.
And it's all so terrifically subjective. My favorite early 90s "innovation" in indie rock is the kind of guitar interplay you hear beginning with Sonic Youth and Fugazi through Pavement, Superchunk and later Modest Mouse and Built to Spill. For my money, that's rock perfection. It's something that distinguishes 90s indie from Husker Du, Minutemen, etc. not that these bands were the first to have two guitarists playing against each other, but the way it was done in the 90s is a really overlooked thing.
To me, it's what makes Sonic Youth basically the best Rock and Roll band ever. But that's just one guy's $0.02.
Pete, I'm enjoying this, too. Sonic Youth are one of my favorite bands, too, and I'd even go so far as to sometimes think of them the greatest band ever, but for different reasons than the one you stated. They're basically rock critics at heart, but talented musicians as well. They're intimately familiar with the innovations of the late '70s and early '80s as they were part of various NYC scenes at the time (no wave, early hardcore, downtown noise as Thurston and Lee played with Glenn Branca and Rhys Chatham, etc.). However, they revolve around a marriage and have had the same members for the last 25 years, so though they're bohemians, they're not decadent druggies of the type someone like me (bookish, academic, etc.) could never be. Did that make sense? Others fault them from having an ironic distant from some of the genres they plunder, but I think that makes them better and on some level, more honest. Again, I hope this is making sense. Plus, they make great music, too. :-)
ReplyDeleteDid I ever tell you that I once bought records from Bob Bert at a tag sale outside of his house in Hoboken about 10 years ago?
Also, I definitely see what you're saying about the guitar interplay of bands like Fugazi, Sonic Youth, Superchunk and Pavement. I'm not too familiar with BTS, but from what I've heard, they seem to be more in line with Wipers, Dinosaur Jr, etc. in that they're dominated by Doug Martsch, a solitary guitar virtuoso. I've also never really thought about Modest Mouse in that light before as the focus tends to be on Isaac Brock's vocals, lyrics and songs, but I'll take your word on it.
Also, it's important to note that Hüsker Dü and The Minutemen were trios with only one guitar player. When I think of where Fugazi got that dual-guitar interplay, I always think of the late '70s punk/reggae band The Ruts, though I think overall sound-wise they owe a bit more to Gang of Four (another post-punk band with great dual guitar interplay but dominated by an amazing rhythm section kinda like Fugazi actually) and US bands like Mission of Burma and The Effigies in terms of their overall sound. Leatherface, another great punk band from the UK that goes back to the late '80s, also has great guitar interplay, but they're from the Ruts/Dag Nasty school as well in terms of sound and instrumentation.
Oh and another thing that differentiated '90s indie (and made some of it boring IMO) is the influence of bands like Slint so there's a slightly proggy/artier element that a lot of the '80s bands didn't have.
Boy this is long. Sorry about that!
And you're right. The genesis of punk, hip-hop and all of their respective sub-genres can be traced back to the mid to late '70s. Even metal got an overhaul around that time (and a kick in the ass from punk) with Motörhead and later the NWOBHM bands.
ReplyDelete